tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7620652438500849718.post362670831244385390..comments2024-02-25T10:22:38.186+00:00Comments on The European Citizen: Some notes on the UK's EU debateEurocentrichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09439536905456080079noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7620652438500849718.post-64120453505772891762012-07-13T13:55:38.444+01:002012-07-13T13:55:38.444+01:00There should be a referendum, but there should be ...There should be a referendum, but there should be a full debate on all the issues and on what kind of relationship the UK wants with the EU. If this doesn't happen, then the renegotiation is less likely to correspond to what people want.Eurocentrichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09439536905456080079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7620652438500849718.post-3441207632797844762012-07-13T10:20:17.289+01:002012-07-13T10:20:17.289+01:00Actually, you're absolutely right. It IS about...Actually, you're absolutely right. It IS about democracy, and I'm convinced that (from a constitutional standpoint) an in/out referendum on EU membership is the right thing to do. As A.V. Dicey put it, it's a weakness of the British unwritten constitution that there exists "the possibility... which no one can dispute of a fundamental change passing into law which the mass of the nation do not desire [because] there is under the English Constitution no marked or clear distinction between laws which are not fundamental or constitutional and laws which are fundamental or constitutional." <br /><br />British membership of the EU does indeed, to my mind, represent a fundamental change. I think it's a necessary and justified change, and I think a referendum can be won (the majority opinion in the UK is that, so long as certain powers are repatriated from the EU, Britain should remain a member). But even assuming a referendum would inevitably be lost, it wouldn't change my mind. The decision, whether in or out, needs to be legitimised through a referendum.Joe Litobarskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02416542302347335201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7620652438500849718.post-82355395686366459422012-07-13T09:14:09.215+01:002012-07-13T09:14:09.215+01:00Sue,
Democracy has to be established at the Euro...Sue, <br /><br />Democracy has to be established at the European level, where the greatest challenges have to be solved, among them the worsening euro crisis.<br /><br />Sadly, the UK has been at the end of extreme resistance to all democratic reform of the EU, although the rest of the member states have been lousy too and those among the root causes of the troubles.Ralf Grahn https://www.blogger.com/profile/02156293782163802007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7620652438500849718.post-45727971674486300582012-07-13T08:07:29.731+01:002012-07-13T08:07:29.731+01:00You are completely missing the point. It's abo...You are completely missing the point. It's about democracy!<br /><br />We were conned by our own government to join this dictatorship. We were not told that the EU would take over nearly every aspect of our lives. We were not told that it would lead to a political project or the vote in 1975 would have been a NO!<br /><br />We were told (and voted on)a common market, a trading area. We were misled and lied to. The EU is not a democratic institution. We simply want out and control of our lives again.Suehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165615283953837706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7620652438500849718.post-64542226622270198952012-07-12T18:16:52.835+01:002012-07-12T18:16:52.835+01:001. I hope that they do add to the debate and that ...1. I hope that they do add to the debate and that they are debated seriously: I was commenting on the debate as it stands now in the general public.<br /><br />2. I don't think the European Social Contract is greater or has more legitimacy than the national ones. I see the European one as an extention of the national ones into the European stage (that are reflective of European assumptions of the role of the state and regulation/the role of the market). To undermine or break down the European one is to open up more competition on undercutting national social contracts which are broader and deeper. An ecomonic space with rules on, for example employment protection, that differ too much may undermine the social contracts of other Member States and damage their confidence in the internal market (as being "for them" or the undercutting states as "hijacking" the market and threatening their societal norms).<br /><br />3 - 5. We differ a lot here. I think it is much better to force a debate on the areas under discussion and to talk about how the UK views itself as a society (social and economic norms and rules, etc). Simply going for a "power return and EU membership consolidation" strategy wouldn't provoke people to think about where the UK stands on these points, and where it stands in relation to the rest of the EU on them. In the end some repatriation of powers may be demanded and required, but the question of "how different are we really?" in these areas needs to be asked. The pro-Membership side need to act as a pro-active voice and to ensure that there is a real reconsideration of the relationship. If you don't point to the value of thinking or debating these areas and the relationship in these areas, then a similar disregard will be held for the rest of the EU relationship. In other words, it's not just the narrative of the one-way flow of powers that should be challenged, but the political idea of the internal market without a social and cultural context.Eurocentrichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09439536905456080079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7620652438500849718.post-65302562292957028142012-07-12T13:41:33.695+01:002012-07-12T13:41:33.695+01:00Can a stranglehold be creeping? Apologies for the ...Can a stranglehold be creeping? Apologies for the mixed metaphors.Joe Litobarskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02416542302347335201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7620652438500849718.post-55330521006919918022012-07-12T13:39:31.905+01:002012-07-12T13:39:31.905+01:00Some of these points came up in your previous post...Some of these points came up in your previous post, but I'll add my 2 cents:<br /><br />1. Yes, the UK government (understandably) wants to play its cards close to its chest, but it's actually much easier to identify specific demands than you're implying. As I argued before: opt-outs on the Working Time Directive and the European Arrest Warrent + guarantees over financial regulation are probably the minimum. The Fresh Start green paper is a serious start to the discussion, and Hague's review of the impact of EU law on the UK (launched today) will also add to the debate.<br /><br />2. This is, as I've argued in my last comment, possibly a question of political ideology. I'm not convinced that a European social contract has greater legitimacy than a national social contract. In fact, I'd argue exactly the opposite.<br /><br />3. Don't dismiss the importance of "bringing a policy area home" so readily. Doing so would set an important precedent, underlining the fact that power can potentially be transferred in both directions. It would go a long way to disproving the "ratchet effect" argument that has become such a mainstay of British euroscepticism.<br /><br />4. This may be true, but if a referendum in the UK becomes politically inevitable then its an issue that has to be confronted sooner or later.<br /><br />5. A transfer of powers coupled with an in-out referendum that sees the British choosing to remain inside the EU might do nothing to halt the creeping stranglehold of euroscepticism over British politics. But, right now, it's about the only thing that has a chance. The UK is slowly falling out of the EU anyway, with or without a formal referendum. This is a chance to turn things around before they go too far.Joe Litobarskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02416542302347335201noreply@blogger.com